Sarvesh: Why do you call ‘sex’ a creative energy? Only because deities in the scriptures say so? We know that it only creates controversies, scandals and off course, the babies.. Does it have the potential to create anything constructive? Lovers don’t seem to think of sex as creative.
Shivo: Normally, people think that the only creation through sex is babies, which is a serious mis- understanding. Sex is not just the mating of male and female bodies, it is also a deep spiritual completion of masculine and feminine. Infinite possibilities of creation opens up in the mating of Shiva (consciousness) and Shakti (Energy). By accessing consciousness, you are connected to the intelligence of whole cosmos intuitively and energy brings intensity. So when consciousness and energy join, the creation manifest. One of my friends shared that once while she was melting in deep orgasm, she had a feeling that big bang was a massive cosmic orgasm and the whole world has come out of it. She was so true. She was sharing from her own experience, and being a non indian, she did not know that this is how creation has been described in Hindu understanding. This mating of masculine and feminine provides the access to the divine qualities such as bliss, love, courage, focus, foresight, intelligence and creativity and these further manifests as creation of worldly stuff too. It is unfortunate, that creative potential of sex has been forgotten and it has been reduced to a devilish tool for manipulation and victimization.
Sarvesh: Your answer really feels great. But today when we see around, the bottom line of every male-female relationship seems to be CONFLICT. Both hate each other, yet both NEED each other because of their primitive instincts. You bring in this new dimension called ‘innocence’ into the picture. How can sex be innocent, especially in these times where it is obtained through manipulative tactics?
Shivo: You are so true Sarvesh. This conflict between genders is the greatest struggle world has ever faced, with repercussion which even supersedes the class struggle or national enmities. Origin of this conflict is in manipulation, which has been used as weapon by both the genders. If we want peace in our lives, discovering the innocent play and joy of gender union is the only way. Now, it is the time for both the genders to realize that their tactics to control the other sex have failed and it has also turned their lives into a hell. They now need to be proactive and come out of this state of agony. Masculine and feminine in deep reverence for each other can open up the possibility of turning earth into paradise.
Sarvesh: You have given a beautiful example about child’s innocence in your book. Children are really innocent. If they feel something, they express it without censorship. If they want an icecream, they want it means want it. They express their desires and demand their fulfillment whole-heartedly. Should adults too have the same approach when it comes to their lives, especially the sex life? Doesn’t innocence in sex mean that we should express it
without any suppression?
Shivo: First point to understand is, that the respect for our lover is the key to joy. I have seen many example where lovers devise strategies so as to control their partners (and sadly, this is called love). Many times it even harms or takes away the mental peace of lover, but they still continue it, as long as it suits their agenda. Such a manipulation is bound to become a trap, as your own deeds comes back to haunt you. Gratitude and reverence for each other must be the foundation of any sexual relationship. One must feel the desires of other person and get committed to fulfill the same. True joy of sex is in giving pleasure and not in grabbing pleasure. When both the partners are longing to give pleasure to each other, sex becomes an ecstatic dance and sharing of the soul. If one is trying to grab the sexual pleasure (mostly guys) or manipulate the other person by inhibiting sexual desires (mostly girls), both of them shrink spiritually. Such a sex can only be destructive and bring agonies in life. Yes, we should be in our sex lives, like children are in play, fully expressive, playful and totally in present, with no hidden agendas. However, we are grown up and no more children, hence we got to be more mature in understanding the well being of our partner. But at the same time, the fragrance of innocence is too valuable and love cant blossom without it.
Sarvesh: Science has proved that what WE call as love is nothing but hormones in action. Now, as a lover, it can confuse me. If I am attracted to a girl, how can I know whether the hormones are at play or is it the innocent factor of true love that is at work?
Shivo: Science knows nothing about love, as it exists in divine realm, and hence science ends up terming attraction as love. Attraction is a phenomenon, nature has devised to ensure its survival and continuation. Attraction is beautiful, as long as it is understood as the starting point of the journey. However, if we just get stuck with this beginning, we will remain unconscious like an animal. We all are on the journey from nature to divine consciousness. Nature is about survival, and divinity is about attaining bliss. So, if lovers want to experience bliss, they need to move up from attraction to love. Attraction happens as they are opposite poles, and hence it always brings conflict. In love, they become one and hence all the conflicts evaporate. In attraction, you want to get the other somehow, as your survival instincts are at play. In love, you become the other person, and the duality ends.
Sarvesh: I have often found that women are attracted to abusive men and men are attracted to women who use them as doormats. Why is this paradox in life?
Shivo: Ahh… so true and so unfortunate. Women are attracted to abusive men, as they sense a power about them. And they also appear like a challenge to them. In the beginning, the man is abusive, but he is being nice to the woman, so woman thinks that she has the power and that is why he is being nice. Suppose if the woman is in love with a nice guy, she does not have this sense of power as he is nice to everyone, so what is special if he is begin nice to her also. So, woman are attracted to abusive man and they enjoy it immensely in the honeymoon period. But once the honeymoon period is over, he starts to get abusive to her also, but she tries to manage it thru her charisma, but it doesn’t work. So, do you see, getting attracted to an abusive man will only bring agony in life? Similarly, man are attracted to the woman of “catch me if you can” kind of character, as it is satisfying to their ego. They want to have a trophy kind of a woman, who is desired by many men. When they get such a woman, their ego gets a boost obviously. But this trophy relationship can never turn out to be loving and such a relationship turns out to be a bottomless pit, sucking all the energies of these men.
Sarvesh: As long as the desire exists, guilt exists. But we all function from the vantage point of desires. We all desire to have the best lover, the best partner. Is it bad to have such desire. Where does guilt enter in all this?
Shivo: Our motivation to have the best lover is derived from our deep conditioning. Guys have such an urge to find a girl who is desired by many, as it gives the boost to his ego. No wonder, once he gets his trophy lover, he no more finds any interest in her except by way of continuing to show her off to others as a proof of his victory. He fights to protect her, ensures that this trophy is not lost, but he finds no joy and ecstasy with her. Similarly, girls try to find the rich and successful, so as to feel more secure, but very soon they discover that they have made a bad choice, as even though they may be able to provide them the security but they have no idea of what love is. You have asked why guilt enters in picture. When the partners are in relationship, but they don’t love each other, it is natural that guilt captures them, as they are aware that they both are just using each other. Even though they make efforts to sort out the issues, it is obvious that such efforts will fail as love is missing.
Sarvesh: So you mean to say that both, guys and girls act from a ‘whats in it for ME’ attitude before getting into a relationship. This reminds me of something interesting. I have been told that even a hardcore drunkard changes his brand when his existing brand does not give him that KICK any more. Most people get into relationship for some sort of a kick, just like these addicts. And once the kick doesn’t come, they get bored. Most relationships, most marriages end up into ‘boredom’. Why do people get bored of their partners at some point of time in their lives?
Shivo: Most of the people get into relationship to sort out some kind of crisis. Some may be feeling lack of companionship, lack of security, lack of sex, or anything else. Most of the relationships are seeded in crisis, so obviously the fruits of that is also going to be crisis. Yes, it becomes very much like addiction and not the joy. What is the difference between addiction and a joyous experience? In addiction, if you don’t get what you are looking for, you would be depressed, but even if you get it, it doesn’t make you happy. It is true for all kind of addictions and strangely, as you have pointed out, it is also true for relationships. If you are not in a relationship, you are in crisis, but being in relationship does not give you joy. However, there are few relationship, which are based on love and sharing and not on resolving crisis. These are the relationships which blossom and turn into celebration with the passage of time.
Sarvesh: That was really very insightful. You are right. Everywhere around, we see that its some crisis which prompts one to crave for a relationship. So whats is the alternative to this? How can we seed our relationships into genuine sharing and love instead of resolving crisis?
Shivo: Well…. if you truly want a beautiful relationship, then resolve your inner crisis yourself and then get into the relationship. When you feel fulfilled from within, you enter in relationship to share your spirit and you are likely to attract a partner, who is also fulfilled. Such a relationship becomes a beautiful dance. So handle your issues of self esteem, insecurity, fear, childhood abuses, lack of intimacy from parents, feeling unworthy etc., before you enter a relationship. Just know that relationship is not a therapy to resolve all these crisis, but rather a way of sharing love. If you are happy and then you enter relationship, your happiness is going to get magnified. Similarly, if you are sad and then enter your relationship, your sadness will be magnified too.Relationship is an amazing magnifier of your own inner state.
Sarvesh: Thats really great Shivo. You have mentioned in your book about unconditional love as well as commitment. An ordinary lover finds very contradicting. If love is to be unconditional, where does commitment comes into picture?
Shivo: Can you please explain, what seems like contradiction to you?
Sarvesh: Don’t you propose to say that commitment has to be the condition for true love?
Shivo: ya, but first I would like to understand, what is the contradiction you are talking about. If you are in unconditional love, you would be deeply committed to your partner. Where is the contradiction?
Sarvesh: That I will stay with my partner throughtout my life..
That I shall take care of her?
That I shall not leave her… Are these not conditions? Doesn’t every commitment originates in a conditioning?
What exactly should be the commitment, and yet keep it unconditional?
Shivo: What you have talked about is living the promise you made in the past. However, we should remember that this promise was made with some spirit and if this spirit is lost, then this would just become a bondage. In bondage, no one can be happy. Marriages have turned into a bondage, as the promises made in past are very often used to cover insecurities and posses the other person.
However, I am not talking about such a commitment. I am talking about commitment, which turns both the lovers free. Which lets lover fly together, just for the sake of joy. For me commitment is your best intention for your partner, at that very moment. Let me take a few examples- Suppose this guy dreamt of being a film director and he also got admission in the best film institute in the world, which is in New York. Now, his girl friend may have intention that he does not go there and rather remains in India, as she is not only going to miss him for next 3 years, but there are also chances that some other girl is going to enter his life. So she may intend that he remains in India, near her. Now, do you see, that she is operating from sheer possession. But, if she really cares for him and loves him, then she would be happy that his dream is going to be fulfilled and that itself will satisfy her deeply. This is what I call true commitment. She knows that she may end up losing him, but it is fine for her. And you know what, if he truly loves her, he is going to come back. So true commitment is to set your lover free.
Now, let me give you another example, even more complicated than the previous one. This rich girl is in deep love with this poor guy. He realizes at some point of time, that her love to him is based on her reaction to her father, who she feels, did not love him enough and she is now taking revenge by indulging in a behavior, which will hurt him (even though she may be unconscious about it herself). Now, suppose this guy is very mature and has understood this whole phenomenon of reaction. A manipulative guy, will use this situation to further infuriate her against her father. But a truly committed and loving guy would want to set her free from such a sub conscious pattern. He will try to make her see, that she is reacting to her father. Although it is possible that after realizing that, she may also realize that her love was also a reaction and not true love. So, his action is based on true commitment to set her free. Though it is very risky, as he may end up losing her. But we should always realize that unconditional love is an adventure. It can open up miraculous horizons and yet it is very risky.
In the two examples I gave, it may appear that a true commitment is a losing proposition. But it is not so. Even though these two people may end up losing their partners, but trust me, their consciousness will take such a quantum leap and their connection with their own spirit will grow to such an extent that they would be rewarded with the true love at some point of time.
Sarvesh: Well, what if the couple wants to get into a physical relationship? How will this commitment reflect in the sex life of that couple?
Shivo: In normal sexual relationship, one is either trying to exploit the other or trying to avoid the exploitation by other. In such a situation both partners are living as separate egoistic entities, There is no question of soulful sex in such situation and hence no possibility of ecstasy and deep orgasmic pleasure.
On the other hand, if partners are truly committed to each other and have gratitude, their energy start to move up and they begin to delve into the space of intense pleasure and they are blessed with the mysterious divine miracles.
Sarvesh: I see that your emphasis is on satisfying the partner. Is there an element of ‘SACRIFICING’ in relationships involved here. Can self-interest be preserved despite helping each other blossom?
Shivo: If commitment is based on the sacrifice, it is not going to last for much time. Because whenever we sacrifice, we also build expectations. The commitment I explained to you is based on true joy of love. When one is truly in love, there are no sacrifices. When the lovers have realized that they are the extension of each other and they can feel the joy and agony of each other with the same intensity, as they would feel their own, how can there be any sacrifice? If you are doing something for your lover, you are doing it for your own self. I know, it will still appear like sacrifice to many, but it is not. Those who are so loving, are richly rewarded by life. On the other other hand, those who live life based on insecurity, may appear like winning in life, but they are only attracting agonies. I would like to clarify, that the commitment I have mentioned, emanates from mutual understanding, life intelligence and maturity and not from sacrifice.
In the sexual matters too, those who are deeply committed to give pleasure to their partners, get back the pleasure multiplied and those who are just trying to extract sex based on a past promise, turn their sex lives into a boring and frustrating routine.
Sarvesh: Why is it necessary to find the soul mate? Does everybody has one? Is the soul mate same for every birth? Whats goes wrong if we are in a relationship with someone who is not our soul mate?
Shivo: Anyone who helps you take quantum leap of consciousness, is your soul mate. Soul mate is a very deep relationship based on true commitment and freedom. We may have many soul mates, who may come in our life after life journey at different point of time. However, if you are not in soul relationship, but in a relationship based on mind games, you are attracting traumas in your life.
Sarvesh: When a boy and a girl meets first time, whats the litmus test to know that he/she is “made for me” ?
Shivo: Very beautiful question. I remember, one of my friends studying abroad was going through a painful and abusive breakthrough and she asked me, if there was a way to know what the character of this guy is, even before the relationship started. I told her that indeed there is a way to know this even before you enter this relationship. I asked her, what all he shared with you about his ex-girlfriend and she told me that he was bitter with her betrayal. And I told her, that this is how she could have understood the real character of this guy at that very moment. A true lover will be full of gratitude for his ex- lover, for his family, for his surrounding and for life overall. I feel sad, when I see lovers criticizing their ex’s to their prospective lover, as they are not even aware that some day, even they are going to meet the same fate.
Sarvesh: Your litmus test is really very convincing. I guess its based on a simple fact that ‘ history always repeat itself’. So if you are in grudge with your history, it will appear in the same form in the days to come. If you are in gratitude, then that will reappear again in future. But Shivo, you also say that consciousness is evolving towards multiple lovers. So how can somebody full of gratitude , can ever MOVE AHEAD to another lover, leaving behind his existing lover? What will prompt him/her to move further?
Shivo: Well… true love is like a real flower. It blossoms and it also dies. The plastic flowers are permanent. So the marriage can be permanent but it has no fragrance. When lovers love truly, they take a quantum leap in consciousness and then their love is transformed into a intimate friendship. At this stage, they are in true freedom and gratitude for each other. When you reach this state, it is the time to move on to another lover. So you say thanks to each other and move on. Yes, it is true that in the process, you may find someone, with whom you would like to spend your whole life, as the other person is your soul mate. Until, you have found your soulmate, it can block your consciousness to evolve, if you just get stuck with one person.
Sarvesh: Since you say that innocence is the key to sexual ecstasy, are there any specific techniques you would suggest to nurture innocence in our relationships?
Shivo: We all are born innocent, but on the way we acquire the cunningness as the safety mechanisms. Once you begin to develop deep faith in life, innocence begin to flower again. Meditative or prayerful living is the key for that.
Summing up by Sarvesh:
That’s all from my side Shivo. I would be eternally grateful to you for allowing me to interview you on such a unique topic.
When I first read the title of your book, I thought it to be extremely ‘celestial’. However, as I myself read it and after having interviewed you, I think that you have created one of the most ‘down to earth’ masterpieces on a very sensitive subject. My heartiest congratulation to you for that.
Relationships form the core of human life. And amongst all the relationships, the relationship between man and woman is an extremely sensitive one. Especially, when we speak in terms of sex. If we look around, we realize that the society has really dirtied a beautiful thing like sex, through its dogmas, manipulative systems and baseless beliefs. Modern day men and women, don’t know true love any more. Not only love, they have even forgotten the sacredness and innocence of sex. Lovers are turning manipulative and both, men and women, seek temporary pleasures in using sex to display their power.
Your book comes as a fresh aroma in this somewhat ‘polluted’ environment. The subject of ‘innocence’ blended with sex is really a path-breaking one. The society today is groping in darkness when it comes to maintaining innocence in sex. I sincerely wish that your book goes a long way in clearing up the smoke and bring a new dimension in understanding love and sex. With this I conclude my interview and wish you all the best with your book.